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Subject: 144000
Replies: 60 Views: 3627
n1ck 21.04.09 - 08:25pm
I am interested to know coolit's explanation of the Jehova's Witness view of the 144000 sealed saints in Revelation 7. Coolit can you explain what the JW believe about who the 144000 are? *
n1ck 21.04.09 - 08:26pm
Only looking for coolit's answer at this point, thank you. *
coolit 21.04.09 - 10:32pm
Are you looking for MY answer or The Bible's answer? If your looking for the first, i cannot provide. But if the latter, i can furnish you. *
n1ck 22.04.09 - 08:50am
I know what the Bible says about the 144000. I want to know what your interpretation is. *
coolit 22.04.09 - 03:21pm
Alryt, let's take it in a question and answer forum. What is the purpose of the selection of these 144000? *
n1ck 22.04.09 - 04:53pm
Revelation 7:3-4 says the 144000 are the servants of God. The sealed of God. Maybe you can explain in more detail.... *
coolit 22.04.09 - 10:59pm
Pls compare Rev. 14:1 and heb. 12:22,23. Both mentions 'Mount Zion'. Mount zion represents heaven based in heb. 12:22. So, these 144,000 have heavenly hope. What will they do in heaven? *
n1ck 23.04.09 - 05:23am
OK so you agree then that the 144000 in Revelation 7 are the same 144000 in Revelation 14. Revelation 7 says the 144000 will worship God in Heaven.
Now who do you believe are the 144000? Do you believe it is a literal figure? *
coolit 23.04.09 - 01:13pm
The number 144,000 is literal. How do we know that? It is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144000, rev. 7:9 refers to 'a great crowd' which no man able to number'. If the number 144000, were n0t literal it would lack meaning as a c0ntrast to the 'great crowd'. Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus' statement at Matt 22:14 regarding the kingdom of heavens: There are many invited but FEW chosen. *
coolit 23.04.09 - 01:22pm
Regarding those who have 'heavenly hope' Jesus called them: little flock
luke 12:32 says: Have no fear, little flock because your father has approved of giving you the kingdom.
this little flock is actually the 144000 JW's. But what about the rest of the JW's? *
soldier2 25.04.09 - 12:20pm
Tell us coolit *
fabanio 25.04.09 - 02:58pm
so coolit i always read your posts and never want to interfere but let me ask you this *
fabanio 25.04.09 - 03:09pm
The 144000 are jews sealed from the 12 tribe of isreal according to rev 7:3-9 so therefore they are jews and your organisation teaches that JW'S are not jews so how does the 144000 include JW'S explain please *
coolit 25.04.09 - 03:20pm
@ fabanio,These are not the 'natural Jews'. How do we know that? At Matthew 21:43, Jesus said to the Jews:The kingdom of God will be taken from you(Jews) and be given to a nation producing its fruits. moreover, pls compare the listing of the natural Jews at Numbers 1:4-16 with those of the symbolical Jews at rev. 7:4-8. You will see difference, meaning, those that are in rev. 7 are not the 'natural Jews'.
Furthermore, at rev. 14:1, it is said that on the foreheads of those 144,000, the name of the Lamb which is Jesus Christ, and the name of the Lamb's Father which is Jehovah are written. The fact that Christ's name is written on their foreheads means that the 144,000 are dedicated Christians. And the fact that Jehovah's name is written on their foreheads means that they are ordained Jehovah's Witnesses. *
coolit 25.04.09 - 03:30pm
@soldier, the 144000 are the 'little flock' in luke 12:32. What about the other JW's? In John 10:16, Jesus said: And I have OTHER SHEEP which are not of this fold(the 144,000); those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and will bec0me ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPERD. the OTHER SHEEP are the JW who have an 'earthly hope'. They will be the subjects of God's Kingdom. *
fabanio 26.04.09 - 04:56am
QUESTION: if u determine that the jew's are symbolic how come the number isn't? *
coolit 26.04.09 - 06:23am
As I've said earlier, at rev. 7, the 144,000 is contrasted with the 'great crowd' which no one can number. Such contrast would never be necessary if the number 144,000 is not literal. Moreover, at rev 7 and 14, the 'IDENTITIES' are symbolic. For example: the Lamb stands for Jesus; Mount Zion stands for Heaven; the Jews stands for the people of God. However, the QUANTITIES there are literal. For example: the Lamb is just 1, mount zion is 1, the symbolical jews must also be literally 144,000.
another reason why we believe that 144,000 is literal is that nowadays, there are only about 9,000 annointed Jehovah's Witnesses who have heavenly hope that are still on earth. These are the remnants of the 144,000. Their small number compared to the other JW's( those who have earthly hope) shows that the number is literal and is now almost completed. *
n1ck 26.04.09 - 06:26am
Quote from coolit above:
''Furthermore, at rev. 14:1, it is said that on the foreheads of those 144,000, the name of the Lamb which is Jesus Christ, and the name of the Lamb's Father which is Jehovah are written. The fact that Christ's name is written on their foreheads means that the 144,000 are dedicated Christians.''
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.(KJV)
The verse only says the 144000 have the Father's name on their foreheads. Coolit, are you finally in agreement that Jesus Christ is God? *
fabanio 26.04.09 - 06:28am
I'd like 2 knw if these tribe aren't included in the millions john saw in rev 7:9-15 n look what jesus is arrayed in rev 20:13 what significance does this show?
so therefore these are the people that will go 2 heaven(saints) and who does the bible clearly states will go to heaven rev 14:12 commandment keeping people so how does this include JW'S apperently JW'S don't keep the commandments. *
n1ck 26.04.09 - 06:43am
Well you can't pick and choose what you want to take literally and what you want to take figuratively from a passage, right.
So then, if you believe the 144000 is a literal number, then you must believe that the description of the 144000 is a literal description. Lets have a look at it in Revelation 14:
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins... The 144000 will be virgins apparently. Tough, but can be done. But this also, literally, means none of the 144000 are women, because it says they were ''not defiled with women''.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. The 144000 have never told a lie and are perfect. That includes no original sin. I would love to meet just 1 perfect man, or even 1 man that has never told a lie. Nevermind 144000 of them.
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. If you want to take the number literally, you must also take the description literally. That means that the 144000 must be literally descendant from the actual 12 tribes of Israel. Not a symbolic ''new Israel''.
Hmmm, if taken literally, then by this description I think the number 144000 is over stated by 144000. Verse 14:5 alone is enough evidence for that. *
n1ck 26.04.09 - 06:58am
Coolit, you said that in Luke 12:32 Jesus was talking about a ''little flock'' which you say is the 144000. Lets read the verse:
12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.[/i]
Well clearly Jesus was talking to the ''little flock'' right then, so according to you these 144000 people must have been standing before Jesus on that day. Obviously, Jesus was just referring to His followers that were there listening to Him, coolit, NOT the 144000 of Revelation 7.
You also said that in John 10:16 Jesus refers to ''other sheep'' which you say refers to the people excluded from the 144000. I don't think there is a single study guide that interprets it that way. What Jesus meant by other sheep that were not of this fold, was that the other sheep were not Jews. This is a distinct intimation that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles a doctrine extremely offensive to the Jews. This prediction of the Saviour has been strikingly confirmed in the conversion of millions of the Gentiles to the gospel. *
fabanio 26.04.09 - 03:21pm
Coolit quit the stupidity.rev 14:12 cleary says if you do not keep the commandments there's no hope of going to heaven.dont try to run away by saying that rev 14 is symbolic.So there's now way this include JW'S. *
coolit 26.04.09 - 10:59pm
Sorry. But you missed out the entire context. When will be the sealing completed? pls note that the vision applies in the LORD'S DAY. Rev. 1:10 says: By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day... all the visions in Revelation must be in the Lord's day and after it.
Moreover, pls compare Matthew 24:31 with Rev. 7:1. In Matthew 24:31, Jesus was talking about his second presence (parousia). Thus, the sealing of the 144,000 is still occuring to this day. In Rev. 7:1, the angels are said that they are 'holding tight the four winds'. Why? Because if they release the '4 winds' destruction will be done to earth. So, the 4 winds HAS NOT been released. It will be released after the 144,000 is completed. As ive said earlier, there are about 9,000 ann0inted JW who are still on earth. Evidently, the sealing is Almost complete. *
coolit 26.04.09 - 11:10pm
The sealing is not 'one-time' only. It started off with the apostles and ends during the Lord's day. Pls read Matthew 19:28( note the 12 thrones and the 12 tribes there. Evidently, the apostles will not be ruling over the Natural Israel, but the Symbolic Israel) *
fabanio 27.04.09 - 02:23am
Please give me scriptual evidence as to where these annointead Jw's are found?QUESTION: who says the sealing starts already? Note rev 6:12-17 says a sequence of things must happen first.we do not see these things happening 2day do we? So therefore the sealing couldn't be taking place right now. Even if it was Jw's wouldn't be included. Why? They wouldn't have the seal of god.What is the seal of god? Isa 8:16,20 compared with deut 6:6-8, 11-18 *
coolit 27.04.09 - 09:07am
Ok, i'll make it simple. What is the name of Jesus' Father? Btw, how do we know that Jesus' Father has a name?
John 12:28 says:(Jesus prayed:) 'Father, glorify your name.' Therefore, a voice came out of heaven: 'I both glorified it and will glorify it again.'
Now, pls answer me, what is the name of Jesus' Father? *
n1ck 27.04.09 - 10:48am
wow coolit you just managed to skip past every one of my points without answering any. Care to respond to them please? *
coolit 28.04.09 - 02:34am
@n1ck, if Jehovah God would choose certain ppl to be in heaven, from where do you think he'd pick them? From His organization or from the others'? And if Jehovah chooses the 144,000 from the JW organization, are you gonna be jealous? *
fabanio 28.04.09 - 04:15am
YAHWEH. now back to my question from before where in the bible can this be found if u provide me with that i'll be a Jw. *
n1ck 28.04.09 - 05:10am
Coolit are you going to answer my points or not. Stop trying beating around the bush. Youre trying very hard to steer away from what I said. *
coolit 28.04.09 - 11:20am
N1ck, i did not actually understand what you said... You posted so many ideas and i dont know where to start... Pls reask your questions one at a time... What would be the first one? *
coolit 28.04.09 - 11:38am
@ fabanio, ok, at isaiah 43:10, Yahweh, or in english form Jehovah, called his people as his 'witnesses'. So they are 'Jehovah's Witnesses.' At hebrews 12:1, Abel, Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc(Heb. Chap. 11) were referred to a 'CLOUD OF WITNESSES'. Thus, the faithful Israelites were called Jehovah's Witnesses. Now, based on Exo. 19:5,6, Jehovah made a covenant with the nation of Israel that they'll be a 'Kingdom of priests and a holy nation'.. What was the condition? They shall obey Jehovah's voice strictly. But what happened? Pls study Matthew 8:11,12 and get back to me. Thanks. *
fabanio 28.04.09 - 09:26pm
Ok i can agree with you that under the old covenant based on scripture that the were known as JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.However what is the new name prophesied 20 chapters down in the same book of Isaiah 62:2? See acts 11:26. If the name jehovah was important why is it found no where in the new testament if that's Gods divine name for his people under the new covenant? Why would god wait ova 2000 years to suddenly start using the name jehovah's witness? *
fabanio 28.04.09 - 09:29pm
Does this mean the first century christians and the early churches were known as jehovah's witnesses? *
coolit 29.04.09 - 11:45pm
Yes. Pls note that no original m . Is available today. But internal evidence of the bible shows that the name Jehovah appeared in NT. That's why some translations, to name a few, ' the emphatic diaglot by benjamin wilson and the NW, restored the name of Jehovah in NT. What are their basis? Consider this: the expression 'HALLELUJAH' means 'praise Jah, you people'. 'Jah' is the shortened form of the name Jehovah. Pls check KJV Psalm 68:4. The expression 'hallelujah' occurs in NT 4 times, i.e, Rev. Chap. 19. So, it is evident that the name Jehovah was used by the 1st century Christians. *
coolit 29.04.09 - 11:54pm
Now, pls read Acts 15:14. It says there that GOD turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. So, God took out people to be Jehovah's Witnesses, those who witness for HIS NAME. How do we know that? Acts 15:14 qoutes from Isaiah 55:5. In that verse, Jehovah is being referred as 'calling out a new nation'. Thus, Jehovah's Witnesses continues to be the name of God's people.
they are also called 'Christians' because they follow the Christ. Jesus is the forem0st Jehovah's Witness. -Rev. 1:5, John 17:6. *
fabanio 30.04.09 - 04:40am
why would god wait ova 2000 years 2 start using that name?
as you've said in your last post jesus is a faithful witness. WITNESS yes but witness of who? as john says chapter 8:14 n 18 *
fabanio 30.04.09 - 05:29am
As to the calling out god is just saying to the gentiles that they will get a chance to be with him in the holy city and be
in grafted into the family and be under the same umbrella as the isrealites says romans 11:24 and as it is written all isreal shall be saved. (v 26-27) god cannot lie because he says in 1 peter 1:25,Isaiah 40:8 the word of the lord endures forever. *
coolit 30.04.09 - 10:49am
False accusations are not allowed in this forum. One of your posts is deleted.
At the end of the line, you have your own interpretation. I do have my own belief. In the 1st place, who is your God? The trinitarian God, isnt it? My God is Jehovah. Thus, your God is not my God and my God is not your God. So, if my God chooses his organization, Jehovah's Witnesses, to fill up the 144,000 and i believe in that, would that be wrong? And if your triune God chooses you, would I disagree? Of course not. *
coolit 30.04.09 - 10:55am
I'm not forcing anyone here to believe what I do believe. I respect your beliefs, opinions, ideas. Notice that I have never said anything against your specific religion. *
fabanio 1.05.09 - 08:20pm
Ok i shouldn't have said that! sorry. and YES u accused my religion you said S.D.A's are pagons in this group.WHY DID YOU DELETE MY POST THAT SAY JESUS IS A WITNESS OF HIMSELF?
*
coolit 1.05.09 - 11:35pm
Your last post is erroneous. Im sorry to tell that. I have never spoken against your religion. I didnt even know your an adventist. Pls point out that post of mine if you find it. What you qouted was out of contxt. Sorry for that too. In the mosaic law, you cannot witness for yourself. Pls read the preceding verses. Jesus was proving that he was indeed the messiah. Jesus being a Jehovah's witness is evident by the fact that he let his Father's name manifest- john 17:6; 12:28. Jesus name literally means 'Jehovah Is Salvation'. So he witness for Jehovah God. *
fabanio 2.05.09 - 03:31pm
In a forum u had with a girl but u deleted it. the question was does your organization teach that all churches except JEHOVAH'S WITNESS leaders are satan and the pastors are ANTICHRIST? and you said YES.
And whatever i said can be proven so therefore can you provide me with scriptural evidence as to where this passage is that say in moses law people can't witness for themselves. *
coolit 2.05.09 - 11:15pm
I must admit i made an error there. I did not convey exactly what i mean. What i mean was that a 'single person cannot witness for himself ALONE' he can testify but in the mosaic law, it is disregarded if his tesminony is not backed up with another. Im imperfect and willing to be corrected. I was thinking of this Mosaic Law on Nu 35:30, De 17:6, 19:15... compare Joh 8:17,18, 1Ti 5:19 and Heb. 10:28.
Now lets take the case of Jesus: in chap 8 of John, to whom Jesus was talking to? To the pharisees, those who dont believe that he is the Christ. Certainly, Jesus knew that his witness is true even he's 'alone'. Howevr, that's not considered by the mosaic law. But my point here is: Jesus said, 'I AM THE FAITHFUL WITNESS'. He was not referring to his witness for himself. He was applying his prophecied role at psalm 89:37. Notice that at vrs 26, Jesus calls his Father, 'God'. So he witnesses for his Father. This is the real meaning of it. *
fabanio 3.05.09 - 07:30pm
Firstly do me a favour you don't decide what or who is out of context,or what is and is not to be deleted give the veiwers that prevalence because it appears to me as if you are prevaricated. *
fabanio 3.05.09 - 08:43pm
Nice anology but not consistent with what the bible said rev 1 said his father is the witness of him john 8:17
now the god of the sky who's that faithful witness 1 john 5:7-12. *
coolit 3.05.09 - 11:25pm
I can know exactly what is out of c0ntext bc0z i know the main theme of the bible... Ok, as we go on, pls answer this: what is the main theme of the Bible? *
fabanio 4.05.09 - 01:12am
i made a mistake in that last post that shouldn't be god of the skx is should be witness of the sky.
NOW THE MAIN THEME OF THE BIBLE IS IN MATT 28:18-20. *
coolit 5.05.09 - 01:42am
Uhm... There's deeper than that... The main theme of the bible revolves around the vindication of YHWH's Sovereignty by means of the Messianic Kingdom , lead by Jesus Christ. Eze 38:23; daniel 2:44, luke 1:32,33. luke 4:43 and matt. 6:10. *
fabanio 5.05.09 - 05:00am
You said u had your own interpretation of the bible should we have same? did you compare the teachings of both ORGANIZATIONS (YOUR N MINE)? to see which walks the closest to the bible! try doing that the truth will come out.
Btw FROM THE BIBLE WHAT IS TRUTH? *
coolit 5.05.09 - 07:20am
Pls read MY TESTIMONY to answer your question.
the bible has its own interpretation. The main theme of the bible revolves around the God's Kingdom. The 1st prophecy of the bible which is f0und at gen. 3:15 shows how God will execute his purpose for mankind. Pls study how the Kingdom of Israel turned to be a heavenly Kingdom. The kingdom of God is the real solution of mankind's suffering. More importantly, it will vindicate Jehovah's name! Pls read the topic A WORLDWIDE MESSAGE. *
